Yakkstr

Why Israel?

Warning Extremely looong post. You've been warned.

This question actually deals with more than just US-Israeli relations. It deals with the Middle East policy over all. Some people in various media sources have been clamoring for a war with Iran and I have seen that sentiment repeated on yakkstr as well. The talking heads on TV have convinced a lot of people that Iran is a menace and needs military intervention. These people also believe that there is a large pro-US contingency in Iran and we would be welcomed as liberators if we went in. Just like Iraq, right?

Here's the thing I don't get. Our newspapers and TV stations may blather on a thousand times a day about attacking Iran and bombing its people, but if even one Iranian talks about fighting back, he is being “aggressive” and “threatening”; we can impose sanctions on anyone, but if the sanctioned country embargoes oil shipments to Europe in response, it’s being “belligerent,” and so on. This right here is a fine example of American exceptionalism. This double standard that not only can US do no wrong, we're free to say whatever we want. As soon as someone raise a voice critical of the US, they're immediately labeled as someone who hates freedom, or have their names be put on a list somewhere.

There are countless other examples of double standard that the US has about this region. The only consistent aspect of US Middle East policy is our unflinching devotion and support of Israel coupled with future speculations on resource acquisition. This is why you don't hear a peep about Saudi special forces thumping the crap our of peaceful demonstrators in Bahrain. Why we supported strong arm dictators like Mubarak, the Assad family, Khadaffi and Saddam Hussein for the last 30 years. Of course, now that Arab Spring has toppled many of those dictators, US is calling for democratic elections in the region, throwing the old leaders we were doing business with (and making fistfuls of money with) under the bus.

We really should be careful what we wish for, though. You give the Arabs democracy and the Palestinians will elect Hamas. Tunisia will elect Al-Nahda. Egypt will elect the Salafists[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafi). Libya still has a long way to go. And to make things even more interesting, Al Qaeda has now come out in support of the insurgents in Syria, which takes the wind out of the sails criticizing Assad. Amidst all this, now we're talking about a war with Iran.

The thing that these people forget about is that Iran has a population of at least 70 million people, with a vast percentage of their population under the age of 35. They're not going to lay down like the Iraqis did. Nor do we have the capabilities that we had going into Iraq. Nor do we have any international backing should we decide to take on this endeavor, except for Israel. In fact, the ones clamoring for war against Iran is taking a page from the Iraq warmonger playbook.

The thing that I find really strange is that no one would gain anything if US and Iran got into a war. Israelis think that they would benefit from a war between the two nations, but even that is not guaranteed. The ones who call for the destruction of Israel are by and large operating outside of Iran. Their capabilities would not be diminished in any substantial way. Of course the Israeli lobby is 100% behind this campaign, but how good of an ally is Israel to the US? It's clear what a great ally US is to Israel, but is there reciprocity? Does Israel give US a reach around as they peg the US?

Israel has sent spies to the US to steal all kinds of state secrets. Israeli diplomats routinely meet with spies and often gets caught. Israel runs one of the most aggressive and damaging espionage networks targeting the US. Israel and its intelligence services often feature prominently as a threat second only to China. In 2005 the FBI noted, for example, that Israel maintains "an active program to gather proprietary information within the United States." A key Israeli method, said the FBI report, is computer intrusion.

The media and government officials don't want to talk about this issue due to the extreme sensitivity of the U.S.-Israel relationship, coupled with the burden of the Israel lobby, which punishes legislators who dare to criticize the Jewish state. There's no denying that the Israel lobby is one of the most powerful lobbying groups in the United States and they have even infiltrated and courted the Evangelical Christian community. The support for Israel becomes total and complete especially when religion is thrown into the mix.

John Mearsheimer, Professor of Political Science at the University of Chicago, and Stephen Walt, Professor of International Relations at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University wrote a paper called "The Israeli Lobby" in which they detail the influence the Israeli lobby has on the US government, foreign policy and aid to Israel. It's a long read, but it's well worth a read. If you're too lazy to read it, the wiki article on the paper can be read here

A part of the way Israel and the supporters gain sympathy is by exploiting the memory of the Holocaust to further Israeli and financial interests. This particular point was analyzed by Norman Finkelstein in his book, "The Holocaust Industry". Both him and Noam Chomsky has come out in criticizing Israel for publicizing the Holocaust not to raise awareness, but to exploit and profit by it. Finkelstein has caught a lot of grief over his doctoral thesis from Princeton, a critique of a book titled "From Time Immemorial", which he exposed as a total and complete fraud. He was denied tenure at De Paul even though students and faculty all supported him. This allows us a glimpse of the power of the Israeli lobby.

Now here's the thing. Obviously the Israeli lobby is going to promote any policies that are beneficial to the interests of Israel, but do the interests of Israel and the US go hand in hand? While it is true that the stakes are much higher for the Israelis and the security of their nation should take precedence above all, what if the security of Israel inversely effects the security of the US? The two nations are not linked inextricably. They do not share a common fate. If they did, there would be no need for Israel to spy on the US.

Here's another thing I don't get. Looking at it from a religious perspective, the Jews rejected the new covenant with Jesus. They still adhere to the Abrahamic covenant. They are heretics. (Plus, they killed Jesus) This, and the status they enjoyed in government, were among the reasons that fueled the Spanish Inquisition. They had to either convert, or die. I don't see the evangelical community clamoring to convert the Jews at all. In fact, I see the evangelical leaders of this country embrace the Jews while hating the Muslims, who accept Jesus as a prophet and beatify Mary. The problem with Islam is the fact that they believe that Mohammed is the final prophet. There's a discrepancy there when compared to Christianity. I get that. But why is the cognitive dissonance of the Jews rejecting the new covenant not addressed at all?

Like I mentioned earlier on this post and elsewhere, you give the Arabs democracy and they elect governments hostile not only to the US, but also hostile to the Christians living in that area. All over Dar al Islam, from Nigeria and Sudan all the way to Pakistan, Christian minorities are persecuted, attacked, killed. The Islamic governments that pop up after the Arab Spring is not helping the matters at all. Newsweek had a great article on the global war on Christians in the Muslim world. Coptic Christians in Egypt and Iraq are getting killed daily. And yet, very little of the Christians in the US seem to care. In fact, they seem to be more concerned with the fate of the Jews in Israel (the people who have rejected Christ). What gives?

So like the title of my post states: Why Israel?

Any insight any of you could provide to some of my questions would be greatly appreciated.

If you've made it this far, thanks for reading.

Bonus An article recommended by Norman Finkelstein by Alastaire Crooke, from Asia Times titled "Putting Match to Tinder" about the current situation in the Middle East.

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alienated said 3 months ago ...

"And yet, very little of the Christians in the US seem to care. " You are kidding, right? Maybe Obama and his administration do not care, but that is not true of Christians in America. There is very little I can do about it. That is one thing I DO expect the federal government to do -- protect people who believe the way most of us do everywhere in the world. Of course, there is only so much the federal governement can do as well, like better analyze whether removing people like Gadhafi is in our best interest. Sometimes it is better to support the evil you know than the evil that will replace them.

outlander said 3 months ago ...

"Here's the thing I don't get. Our newspapers and TV stations may blather on a thousand times a day about attacking Iran and bombing its people, but if even one Iranian talks about fighting back, he is being “aggressive” and “threatening”; we can impose sanctions on anyone, but if the sanctioned country embargoes oil shipments to Europe in response, it’s being “belligerent,” and so on."

This is a good point but glaringly skips over a major thing: Iran's government. The things Iran does to its people and the threats it makes agains America and Israel along with its funding of Hezzbolah and past fighting of proxy wars in Lebanon and the Iraq make a huge problem if that country is seeking nukes.

"We really should be careful what we wish for, though. You give the Arabs democracy and the Palestinians will elect Hamas. Tunisia will elect Al-Nahda. Egypt will elect the Salafists[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafi). Libya still has a long way to go. And to make things even more interesting, Al Qaeda has now come out in support of the insurgents in Syria, which takes the wind out of the sails criticizing Assad. Amidst all this, now we're talking about a war with Iran."

Just because elections can be rigged doesn't make Democracy any less important in that region. And isn't this profoundly prejudice. Why shouldn't Arabs have a chance at freedom and Democracy?

"Here's another thing I don't get. Looking at it from a religious perspective, the Jews rejected the new covenant with Jesus. They still adhere to the Abrahamic covenant. They are heretics. (Plus, they killed Jesus) This, and the status they enjoyed in government, were among the reasons that fueled the Spanish Inquisition. They had to either convert, or die. I don't see the evangelical community clamoring to convert the Jews at all. In fact, I see the evangelical leaders of this country embrace the Jews while hating the Muslims, who accept Jesus as a prophet and beatify Mary. The problem with Islam is the fact that they believe that Mohammed is the final prophet. There's a discrepancy there when compared to Christianity. I get that. But why is the cognitive dissonance of the Jews rejecting the new covenant not addressed at all."

What are you doing here? You are an atheist trying to talk religion? And no-one hates Muslims in this country we just hate the fact they support and allow their radicals to continuously blow shit up.

Here is what the bottom line is. This is good versus evil and right versus wrong. If the radicals managed to destroy Israel that is a massive recruiting tool. Do you think these people are going to say "all right we are all set now we got our land back, all is good." Or are they going to start after all the other infidels in the world? We must defend Israel because that is the right thing to do and this hatred of people because of their religion on a level they want to wipe out an entire country can not be allowed because it can only get worse.

Every religion is persecuted at one time or another and that is not anything new. When it becomes dangerous is when governments take on a policy of persecution.

grapekoolaid said 3 months ago ...

Alien: There's plenty you can do as an individual to raise awareness about the plight of the Christians in the middle east. Write your congressperson/senator. Bring it up in your church. Raise the overall awareness. Your silence is your tacit support of the atrocities that go on unnoticed.

outlander: What? Because I'm atheist I'm not allowed to talk about religious matters? That a way to silence me? Or a way to delegitimize what I'm saying just because of who I am or what I represent? Way to shoot the messenger and ignore the message. I don't see you saying anything about the point that I've raised, though. The fact that you support people who want nothing to do with you while you ignore the people in your own camp. Way to go.

You nor no one else has given me a good reason as to why we support Israel. I'm still waiting. And international relations are never a black and white matter. It's a varying shades of grey. No one's right and no one's wrong in the matter. We're all culpable, we're all guilty. The sooner you recognize that the better the world will be.

outlander said 3 months ago ...

You don't believe in God so trying to discuss doctrine that comes from vehicles to whorship God is just plain silly.

You keep coming back with this Christian persecution thing. Everyone knows Christians are persecuted, so are Jews and so are Muslims. When I see persecution I write about it. What we are talking about here is anti-Semitism on the same level as the Nazis.

You don't make even a reasonable case against Israel, your spy nonsense is a lot of heresay and there is no proof it had anything to do with the Israeli government.

Holy moly what is your problem that you have to ask why we have support Israel? This is amazing to me. Iran is a country where if a woman gets raped she gets charged with adultry and put to death. Israel says they have a right to the land based on a lot of factors. Iran and other terrorist groups regardless of what land is in play just wants Israel destroyed. If you cannot take sides here then you need to seriously wake up and look who you are supporting. If you are not supporting Israel you are supporting a bunch of animals. These people slaughter woman and children.

What I find almost laughable is go to Iran and stand proud and say you are atheist and see what happens. At the same time go to Israel and make the same claim. Iran would chop your head and Israel would say go in peace.

grapekoolaid said 3 months ago ...

So you don't debate anything with people that disagree with you? You only debate things with people with whom you agree with? That's not a debate. You can't debate yes men. You have to debate someone with an opposing viewpoint. Also, where I stand on religion has ho bearing on the validity of the points I bring up.

Antisemitism on the same level as Nazis? Hyperbole much? The two are not comparable. Not even similar. The situations are clearly different. The state of Israel didn't exist until 1948. If you want to compare the annihilation of Armenians by the Turks vs the Jews in Eastern Europe? Maybe. Learn your history.

Hearsay? A paper by Professor of Political Science at the University of Chicago, and Professor of International Relations at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University is hearsay? A former professor of political science at De Paul is hearsay? By that same argument, anything Alan Dershowitz says is hearsay too, yes? FBI produces its annual report to Congress concerning "Foreign Economic Collection and Industrial Espionage," Israel and its intelligence services often feature prominently as a threat second only to China and this is hearsay too, yeah?

Did I say anything about Iran on this post? Why are you bringing up Iran here? We're talking only about Israel. You have a post about Iran. Go talk about it there. If you don't have a valid defense of Israel, then say so. Did I say anywhere that I support Iran? No. Does questioning our blind support of Israel automatically mean that I support Iran? No.

Speaking of Iran, why does the Iranian people think that the US has ulterior motives? Could it be because we overthrew their democratically elected government and installed a dictatorship in 1953? Look it up. Learn from your own history.

You think Jews will let me go in peace for declaring that I'm an atheist? Orthodox Jews are spitting on reformed jews and women for not dressing modestly.

Once again, my point is that we're all culpable. We're all guilty. No one is innocent. Get that through your thick head. I know that the cognitive dissonance is hard to deal with, but the facts are there. The facts are Israel is the last apartheid state in the world, they routinely spy on the US, they are sketchy allies in the region at best. Most of our allies in that region are sketchy. In fact, it is in our best interest to keep that whole region backwards.

outlander said 3 months ago ...

The situations are different but the hatred is the same as the Nazis. Both groups started out small, they feed off of poverty and injustices, use propaganda, gained the ability to gather recruits, acheived positions in government, and they hate Jews to the point they want them all exterminated.

I was referring to "often gets caught" and "targeting the US" links. I mentioned Iran because you and a lot of others look at this as if it is two equal sides the Arabs on one and the Jews on the other. There are a lot of Arabs in the world and the ones that blow up children are insects not worthy of anything but destruction.

"Once again, my point is that we're all culpable. We're all guilty. No one is innocent. Get that through your thick head. I know that the cognitive dissonance is hard to deal with, but the facts are there. The facts are Israel is the last apartheid state in the world, they routinely spy on the US, they are sketchy allies in the region at best. Most of our allies in that region are sketchy. In fact, it is in our best interest to keep that whole region backwards."

No country is perfect and supporting Israel is the logical choice because how do you support the opposition to Israel when all they want is death. This is what I don't understand about you people. We are pist at them and you libs love to say we hate them which could be true up to a point but do you honestly think I would want harm to families or woman or children? Not in a million years and the reason we are pist at them is they keep blowing shit up. They hate us because we are Christian/Jew and have proven over and over again they would kill our woman and children and their own woman and children if it ment killing us. This kind of hatred is dangerous.

grapekoolaid said 3 months ago ...

You probably don't think the Palestinians have a legitimate grievance against Israel, am I correct in assuming this? Especially because you think the Palestinians don't exist as a people, correct? The million and a half living in refugee camps are all propaganda, right?

The targeting the US link is where I pulled the annual FBI report to congress. Hardly hearsay. The evidence is there. Look it up. Israel is not a good ally to the US. No one in that region is. Like I said, it's in the US interest to keep that whole region backwards. Our support of Israel is a big part of that.

I don't hate anyone. I'm just pointing out the inconsistency and the hypocrisy of our own failed foreign policies. That doesn't mean I hate Israel or Palestine or Iran or anyone. We're just as much at fault for that region being in the state that it's in. At least be honest and admit that. We're not a force of good in the world. As much as we'd like to think so, we're not. We serve our own interests and that's it. You can't blame anyone for serving their own interest. There's nothing wrong with that. It's about time we got past the propaganda and see things the way they truly are.

All I'm saying is that the Christians all over the Muslim world are persecuted. That should concern you more as a Christian than the plight of the Jews, who rejected your covenant. Who are heretics according to your own faith.

If anyone's hating, it's you. You hate the Muslims, you hate the atheists, you hate anyone who's not in your camp.

outlander said 3 months ago ...

The Palestinian problem is not with the Jews it is with there own people. Look at the Gaza strip after Israel handed it over. Until they can unite behind a leader that renounces terrorism and excepts other people's right to existence then nothing is going to change. It is sad the Palestinian people are in the middle of a power struggle with their own people along with a conflict between radical elements of their own people and Israel.

How on earth is it in US interests to keep the whole region backwards? Israel is the only ally in that region with the exception of Iraq. We are a source of good in the world and we are model for the world to follow. If every one of these terrible Muslim countries became Democratic countries where the people are the driving force imagine what we could accomplish.

Christianity is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ. What would Jesus want us to do? Reject all heretics or forgive and/or try to convert them? You cannot prove by any of the statements I have made that I hate anyone. Hate denotes a willingness to do harm and that is far from anything I am for.

What will happen to these terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah? Are they going to just diminish and then fade away or are they going to grow stronger?

grapekoolaid said 3 months ago ...

Sure, the Palestinians have some issues regarding internal cohesion. This is true. Division within a group of people is perfectly natural. Look at this country, for crying out loud. But is what Israel doing helping the situation or not, do you think? And in the long run, do you think that's going to aid their own cause, or not?

Right of return is something that Israel has to address. They can't ignore this issue and force peace in the region. That's simply not going to happen. None of their neighbors want a million and a half refugees milling around in their own backyard. That's just not going to happen. The Lebanese don't want it, the Syrians, the Egyptians, nobody wants them. They've got enough of their own problems as it is.

We serve our own interest. We don't stand for good or freedom or democracy or anything like that. How is ACTA related to freedom? I know how it's related to business, but real concrete freedom? How is it related to "Good" (purely subjective, btw)? Iraq is an ally in that region? They can't get their own head out of their ass long enough to see anything but shit. What about the Christians in Iraq? We letting our "allies" treat our "own" (by your own admission US is a Christian nation, yes?) in this way while we remain silent? In what ways should the world follow our "lead"? Where moneyed interests buy elections and set agendas? Destruction of the middle class that the people of my parents and grandparents generation worked so hard to build?

You know what happens when you give the Muslims democracy? They elect Al Nahda. Salafists. Hamas. This is the world you want? Further destabilization of the region? Womens rights and human rights being set back in that area? We going to fuel the fires by continuing our blind support of Saudis and Israel (who hate each other, btw)?

What would Jesus say? Let's look in the book...

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." — Luke 19:27 1

Hater.

outlander said 3 months ago ...

None of your complaints about Israel make any sense because the 1 million pound gorilla in the room is the opposition to Israel maintains a "The Jews stole the land and we must kill them all" position. How can we talk about who is right or who is wrong when one side holds this position?

Third paragraph, go live in Iran or Syria if you think America sucks so bad. If you are a bitter person figure out what is making you bitter and change, don't blame America for your problems.

Buy elections and destruction of the middle class, more liberal pessimism. Nothing will make you people happy so why are you here?

Muslims live in Democracies all over the world and if it wasn't for stupid liberal policies that let terrorists roam free then we wouldn't have radicals buying elections. And despite the problem with Iraq now they have 100% woman's suffrage and woman serving in government.

So you agree with the teachings in the Bible, does that mean you are Christian? Have you been lieing about being an atheist? How sad.

grapekoolaid said 3 months ago ...

slow clap

If you don't like it you can leave it argument. How puerile. I see room for improvement in this great country, you're happy with the status quo and I'm the one who hates this country? You want this country to remain in the 50's and I want this country to catapult into the new age and I'm the one that should leave this country?

Seriously. Up yours. You can't debate me on the issues, so you're just going to insult me and shoot the messenger. Learn how to debate people properly. My happiness quotient has nothing to do with the issues I bring up. I never said America sucks. I wouldn't be here if I thought so. I want to make it a better place, though. Don't you? Do you think everything's perfect here? Drink the Koolaid.

Liberal policies let terrorists roam free? What the hell does that even mean? Conservative policies of bombing the crap out of people doesn't create more terror in the world?

Also, you're more concerned with womens rights than the plight of the Christians? I understand those aren't mutually exclusive, but while you tout the "successes" of Iraqi progress, you have remained strangely silent on the plight of the people in your own camp. What gives? Why do you not care about Coptic Christians?

Do you have to be a Christian if you agree with some parts of the Bible? Even the "No duh" categories? And you are now accusing me of being a Christian as if that's a bad thing. Are you a defender of your faith or not? If you are, then fucking defend it.

Seriously. The stupid. It burns.

grapekoolaid said 3 months ago ...

Oh and I wouldn't want to leave this country because I'm too scared of this country's foreign policies to go anywhere. I think I'll stay put. Thanks. :P

outlander said 3 months ago ...

Lol..you lose...if you are a chessplayer I would saying "checkmate" right now.

grapekoolaid said 3 months ago ...

Right it's like playing chess with a pigeon. It knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, struts around like it won, and flies back to its flock to claim victory. You're the pigeon in this case. You don't even know the rules of a proper debate. You just attack the messenger and then claim victory? Seriously, who taught you how to debate people?

But then again, the amount of faith you put in religion and junk science, your lack of debate skills doesn't surprise me one bit.

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