Religious Morallity

I'd say that you and I have somewhat biased beliefs about religion. Yours much more cynical. I grew up with a wonderful old country church which taught the more joyful aspects of belief in something greater than ourselves, the lessons and the happiness of doing unto others. I didn't grow up with the hell fire and damnation found in some churches or the greed, but I understand your cynicism. Great evil has been done in the name of religious dogma, but don't forget it has also been done by athiest dogma as well. Anyway, I would say we shouldn't just base our morality on what's best for ourselves.

I actually do think the basis of most of the worlds morals come from religion of some form or another.

On a basic human level, primal, we are in possession of a very basic what is right and wrong, not to harm each other but then when in threat that basis disappears for survival so for me unless you can show me I do think our morals are precepts of religious teachings.

I was raised anglican, I am not in possession of a religious mind or lifestyle however I do have a strong set of morals and ethics that I live my life by.

Yet I am wise and aware enough to know that certain behaviours and lifestyles do not present a threat to the way of life for myself or those around me so of course they are not immoral but different. Based on other unknown prinicipals I guess.

@feather

"I grew up with a wonderful old country church which taught the more joyful aspects of belief in something greater than ourselves, the lessons and the happiness of doing unto others"

That's great, but my point is that those beliefs aren't based on the bible. The bible is full of fire and damnation, and all kinds of crazy things. It has some good things as well, but if someone is cherrypicking the good parts, then they aren't basing their beliefs on the bible. They are choosing their beliefs some other way, which then allows them to pick the parts of the bible they like. At this point, why not throw out the bible and keep the beliefs we are already getting from some other source?

For some reason I have a really hard time explaining this to people, but it seems obvious to me.

@lucyt

"most of the worlds morals come from religion"

There are two different issues here. Clearly the Pope is getting the idea that gay people will undermine humanity from the bible. In that sense, most people get some of their beliefs from old books that claim to be the word of a god. That's issue one.

Issue two, should they? Here I think the answer is that we clearly shouldn't base our values on obedience to words in an old book.

Those beliefs are based on the bible, reck. Have you read the sermon on the mount? The beatitudes? That's the whole point of the new testament. I'm sure truthsayer could explain it better than I can, but God realizes that interference and punishment are wrong, humans must have free will to do as they will and Jesus is sent to deliver that message of hope. That we will make mistakes, but we will always be loved and forgiven if we ask.
I'm going to recommend three books, two of which are non-religious; East of Eden, Cold Sassy Tree, and The Shack.

Let me try to break it down better than I have. this is what I think you are saying.

1. Something is moral or immoral if God says it is moral or immoral
2. I know what God says because he wrote a book called the bible
3. therefore what the bible says is moral is immoral is moral or immoral

Now here's the problem. I don't think you actually believe that, and most people that say they are christians do not believe that. How do you know if you believe this or not, answer a simple question, do you believe everything the bible says? If the answer is no, then you don't believe this.

Here's a good test, is ghandi burning in hell? If you say no, you don't really believe what the bible says simply because it says it.

Ok, now here's the next step of my argument.

1. if you do not believe everything the bible says then you aren't believing it because the bible says it.
2. this means you are getting your beliefs from something else
3. therefore your beliefs are not based on religion.

Hey Reckoner you are right on because if you say you are a christian you believe that the bible is infallible, immutable and inerrant and no where does it gives christians the right to choose which scripture they believe. It must be accepted in it's totality.

Thats a bit like reading Schindler's List and surmising the author advocates killing the Jews. It doesn't mean either or. Not all Cristians take the bible literally. I think you are guilty of lumping all religions into one intolerant group. God did not write the bible. The bible is made up of different books written by different people. Ever hear of the council of Nicea? Some of the books were kept, some discarded, some weren't discovered yet. This is neither here nor there, as I said before you can sum it all up in two sentences if you like. Treat others as you would have others treat you, and we all make mistakes ask and you will be forgiven.

How do you decide which parts of the bible you think are gods morals? Probably the same way non religious people decide what their morals are :)

See my point?

According to the Catholic Church, Abortion is a bigger problem than joblessness. Because we need more people in line at the soup kitchens.

Religion is a font of politics. You can't have human history without it. You can't talk about it without involving politics.

Here's my problem with religion. Especially of the Judeo-Christian variety. I think the fact that they have a sense of community, look out for each other, be good neighbors and all that is great. Super.

But it's an exclusive faith. Until you do such and such, you are damned to eternity in hell. Their faith therefore, tells them to go out there and spread the word. Go out there and proselytize. In order to "save" you. They are at an elevated sense of moral state due to their beliefs. Follow me?

But these people are coerced into doing good for the fear of retribution. A promise of a reward and avoidance of punishment.

I don't have to believe in hell to be a good person. Moral relativism and empathy do much more for ethical behavior than dietary laws of 2nd century BCE.

Oh Sky Cake... Why are you so delicious?!!

Grape the Catholic Church doesn't speak for all Judeo-Christians. Neither do the Evangelicals. You are both lumping all religions into one bigoted group. Are all athiests going to kill millions of people like Stalin and Mao? And how do you know your morality didn't originally come from a belief in God?

I'm not lumping anyone. I'm asking what you base your morality on, and you haven't responded to my comment where I lay out my argument in numbered points. Can you reply to that?

Ay yi yi! Is it really neccesary to number my points? I'll start with number two- God did not write the bible. Therefore we can only use it as a guide. That pretty much takes care of number three and number one because the bible isn't the be all and end all of morality, although we do have clues about what God intended with the ten commandments and the lessons of Jesus. Most inportant; judge not lest ye be judged, and let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I'm going to add another book to my list. The Screwtape Letters by CS Lewis an avowed athiest turned Christian.

That was supposed to be important....they really need an edit button here.

As far as where morality comes from, its basis is through having a conscience. A conscience defines a person's character, compassion, empathy, and the ability to love. No one needs religion for this. The desire to do right or wrong comes from within and belief in a God is quite obviously not necessary.

Religion primarily establishes a code of conduct (ethics) through the threat of punishment. I believe much as mrgrape does, that morality (to me, a conscience) should determine ethical behavior. Although similar to most people, there is a very real difference between morals and ethics. Someone once said 'the ethical man knows he shouldn't betray his wife, the moral man won't'.

I don't know how to argue that codes of conduct did or did not originate with religion. It seems that most known societies felt the need for something bigger than themselves to establish codes. Religion up to this day have a very convulated way of teaching them and most change over time.

There is no way I can believe that moral behavior (conscience) has its origin in a belief in any God. Nor do I believe that a moral society necessitates a religion.

A religion with a diety is a demanded code of conduct from above with unending interpretation. A religion without a diety is a philosophy of life.

A moral person is receptive to good guidance and desires best for all regardless of the sources.

@feather

Right, so my argument is the opposite of lumping you in with fundamentalists. My argument is that you, and most Christians, are like me, and get your morality from something other than religion.

On a tangent, I think the ten commandments are a poor source of morality, do you really think they are the word of God? For example, the first three are about god being jealous of other gods and beliefs. Later it implies that slavery is OK when it says you shouldn't covet your neighbors slaves.

Back to my main point, I think we'd all be better off if we admit that religion isn't the source of our moral beliefs, because currently that claims gives credence to beliefs like "contraception, maturation, etc are immoral"